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destiny
March 2009 
Destiny or free will?
Posted on Jul 16th, 2007
by 
Grey
Grey
This is in Response to the Questions and Reflections for July 16, 2007:
This is a question that comes up a lot in all sorts of ways, but personally I think it's essentially a "non-issue" from an "integral" point of view. It's also a question that really has nothing to do with our true Self and can, at best, only be talked about in terms of the egoic self.
First of all, "destiny" is a problematic concept because it is inherently connected with the past, the future, and the passing of time, and has little or nothing to do with the "infinite" present. In the same way, "free will" only makes sense in terms of the passing of time, but the question of free will is also complicated by the complex web of cause and effect that makes us who we are and so influences and, to a certain extent, predetermines the decisions that we may think we are making of our own "free will".
I suppose you could call this "complex web of cause and effect" a sort of "destiny", but what would be the point? You could also, I suppose, say that both "destiny" and "free will" exist, but again, what would be the point? Does either concept have any impact on the Original Face? Does understanding either help us live our lives in the here and now?
The idea of "karma" seems a bit more useful to me as a concept, sort of a Kosmic cause and effect. The idea that what we do has consequences. But taking either side of the "destiny" vs. "free will" debate seems frought with problems, and trying to blend the two into some sort of compromise belief system seems unnecessarily complicated (and based on two overly simplistic concepts) and ambiguous.
What we should really "believe" in is the infinite, non-dual Oneness, Isness, Suchness (or whatever) and let our awareness of this true Self inform what we do in our daily lives.
Namaste,
~Grey
First of all, "destiny" is a problematic concept because it is inherently connected with the past, the future, and the passing of time, and has little or nothing to do with the "infinite" present. In the same way, "free will" only makes sense in terms of the passing of time, but the question of free will is also complicated by the complex web of cause and effect that makes us who we are and so influences and, to a certain extent, predetermines the decisions that we may think we are making of our own "free will".
I suppose you could call this "complex web of cause and effect" a sort of "destiny", but what would be the point? You could also, I suppose, say that both "destiny" and "free will" exist, but again, what would be the point? Does either concept have any impact on the Original Face? Does understanding either help us live our lives in the here and now?
The idea of "karma" seems a bit more useful to me as a concept, sort of a Kosmic cause and effect. The idea that what we do has consequences. But taking either side of the "destiny" vs. "free will" debate seems frought with problems, and trying to blend the two into some sort of compromise belief system seems unnecessarily complicated (and based on two overly simplistic concepts) and ambiguous.
What we should really "believe" in is the infinite, non-dual Oneness, Isness, Suchness (or whatever) and let our awareness of this true Self inform what we do in our daily lives.
Namaste,
~Grey
Access: Public
well said, who said that?
Thanks! Well, I suppose I did. Seriously though, a large part of my ideas are informed by Integral theory and the work of Ken Wilber, and then, within that general framework, by a variety of sources.
~G
Hmmmm. Thanks for saving me the effort of writing this blog entry!!!! :)
I would just venture some minor additional thoughts: Destiny has an echo of truth, in that certain events in the future (within the experience of “Time”) are much more highly probable–barring what we call miracles– than others, given the flow of energy patterns from current reality, so a good perceiver of current reality can thus “predict” to some extent, and this gives (false) plausibility to the idea of Destiny.
I too reject the idea of Free Will. My reason is because there simply can only be One Will, if there is only One Beingness (“Original Face”) !!!! However, as humans we EXPERIENCE that we make more or less unconstrained choices, and this is a valuable part or aspect of our human experience, so within that framework, it is fine to accept the “responsibility” of choices, realizing it is OUT OF CONTEXT of the Whole, a smaller truth, an illusion, but nonetheless an experience not to be rejected.
My take on Karma is that it is the source of untold suffering, and that ultimately if all is One Will there is no cause and no effect, just Will operating in each and every moment, starting from scratch (the Emptiness or Plenum) in every fraction of a nanosecond.
The only possible benefit I see of any version of an idea of karma is empathy or responsibility, thinking of consequences. But the blame and guilt stuff and the “Bownie points” stuff, wow, very toxic. One can be mindful of consequences of one's actions for self and others, and focused on co-creating the kind of world one wants and envisions, without any version of Karma. One of my spiritual teachers said Karma is a game you can play. You can opt in, or you can opt out. No difference ultimately. No advantage to opting in.
I dig Ken Wilber greatly too, and these perspectives I had before I read him.
Blessings, Rev. O.M. Bastet
There's a lovely Sufi story on that; but I can't find it online, and feel it's rude to say a whole thing on someone else's blog. Like you, OM, I was going blog on this too; and perhaps still might, linking to yours, Grey.
I'm afraid I haven't read / heard Ken Wilber, but from what I hear about Integral theory, it seems close to my roots of theosophy and so on. Don't think that's important, though.
Here's my take on free will and destiny, which we are, after all, discussing so it is important.
As OM suggested, there's a level where Free Will exists, in a manner of speaking. At the Oneness level, where each of us is, and where we decide certain things about this life on earth. Thus is destiny born.
While in the awareness of being just on earth, we feel that things are pre-destined; because we are subject to the laws of nature, karma, physics and what-have-you.
As our awareness expands, and we learn to flow, live in the now, and follow all those new mantras, we begin to get in touch with the Free Will. Our will is in tune with the Will.
And perhaps that is pre-destined!